Rabbi Zalman Marcus on Heaven and Hell [part 1].

There are those times in life when you realize that God is so much larger and more beautiful than you ever imagined. Last night was one of those moments. After a pretty sweet dinner at Taco Mesa, a group of us headed over to the Chabad Jewish Center for an evening of Torah study with Rabbi Zalman Marcus. The topic for the night was the Jewish understanding of heaven and hell. Now I know what some of you are thinking. Why are you going to listen to a rabbi speak on the issue of heaven and hell? Is there anything he could say that might be "true"? Most definitely. Here's why...

As followers of God, we believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God was not the God of the Jews for only a while. God entered into covenant with his people, and that covenant is an eternal reality. God did not get to a certain point in human history, look at his people and say, "This is not working, I need to come up with a new plan." In a very mysterious way, one which we do not fully understand, God is still about inviting people into a covenant relationship.

Add to this the fact that Jesus was Jewish. I know, shocker, huh. Yet the implication of this is astounding. Jesus was raised within a Jewish culture, dominated with a Jewish perception of life and God. Jesus was fully imbeded in the culture of his day. He did not come to teach some foreign understanding of God, rather he came to show and teach about how life looks when it is lived as God created us to, a life in harmony with God - a life obedient to God and the Torah. Jesus' message and teachings therefore must make sense in light of a Jewish understanding of reality.

Add to this the fact that Jesus' audience was Jewish as well. They too were steeped in a Jewish understanding of life and God. The reactions of the people of his day to his teachings also needs to be seen in a historical and socio-political context. Jesus' words are not some unconnected eternal absolutes floating in some ethereal state. They speak of ultimate reality, what is ultimately real and true, firmly imbeded in the language and culture of his day, which was Jewish. Therefore to understand the teachings of Jesus, one needs to explore the context in which they occur.

Okay, long intro... but needed nonetheless.

So after donning our yarmulkas out of respect to our Rabbi and his tradition, he launched into the night by explaining his tradition [the chabad movement, which is a renewal movement within the orthodox tradition] and an historical explanation of the written Torah and the oral Torah. He then launched into the topic at hand.

The Torah [the first five books of the Scriptures] says very little, only a few inferences made through Rabbinic interpreatations, about the issus of heaven and hell. Most of what passes at an understading of heaven and hell come from the oral Torah, not from the written Torah itself. The reason is that God wants to focus his people on the here and now, not focusing on the reward that might come from living obediently to the covenant. Many times in the text of the Torah it states, "Today, you will do..." The rabbis took this as God's desire to have them focus on living obediently, not because of some reward in the future, but because it is the right thing to do in the here and now.

At this point I'm thinking about how much of our understanding of God in the evangelical world is purely future oriented. The "message of Jesus" seems to be all about our future destination. In effect, we've minimized God's desire for us as humanity to a mere getting out of hell and into heaven. Recently I've been thinking about and asking the question, "If there were no heaven and hell, would it still make sense to be a follower of Jesus?" In essense the question challenges us to consider - is our embracing of life in God at it's core truly a self-serving, self-centered act? I am truly amazed at the response of some people to this question. "If there's nothing beyond this, forget it! I'm gonna do what I want!" How sad. How different than the teaching and thinking of Jesus.

Jesus never held out heaven as the primary goal. Now, do our choices have an implication for our life in this world and beyond? Absolutely. But Jesus does not seem to be traveling the Judean countryside asking the question, "Do you know where you would go if you were to die tonight?" What he appears to be asking is this, "Do you want to live, I mean really live? Do you want to live the way God intended you to live, here and now... carrying on into the future?" See, for Jesus, eternal life was not something that started when you died, but was a present reality to be entered into right now. The old is gone. The new has come.

So I think the Jewish understanding of reality is onto something amazing here. Are we following God becuase of what we get out of it? Or are we following God because it is the right thing to do in the here and now? Is it purely about "depopulating hell and populating heaven"?

There must be something more.

I wonder if in rejecting the version of the "gospel" that focuses purely on some eternal destiny, are people actually displaying a deeper hunger for healing and restoration in the here and now - not seeing it in our "gospel presentations"? Could it even be asked whether or not we are truly presenting the wholeness of the gospel at all?

Perhaps the gospel is so much more than we ever imagined.

Comments

[john]

Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to share these. I've had some further thoughts on what the resurrection is all about rolling around in my brain that I hope to post soon. This post definitely helped shape some thinking in that.

[Chris Pritchett]

This is a great message for the church, particularly in Orange County and as Rabbi Marcus said, "Christian Viejo" to hear. I would love to hear your thoughts on what he said about these random notes:

Heaven and hell is reality...hell is when you are exposed and everything you've done is in the open. It's embarrassing and the pain of hell is experiencing what you've done, because you can't fully understand what you've done until it has been done to you. It's a temporary "dry cleaners", a cleansing experience. Also, the symbolism in Jewish Mysticism: When you're embarrassed your face turns red, and then white, which somehow ties into the symbolism of fire and water found all throughout the scriptures. I think I understand water as symbolizing the purification process, but what exactly does fire symbolize? Simply experiencing the embarrassment of the wrong I've done?

Heaven is the exact opposite: it's getting to see the full ramifications of the good things you've done, because often times we do good things throughout the day and don't even notice the impact.

And what about the different levels of heaven and how you essentially create your own heaven and hell..."you can have a mansion on the beach or an apartment in downtown heaven?" I think you touched on this idea in Mexico.

And, of course, where does Jesus fit into all this in your viewpoint...his death and resurrection?

[Matt]

A very good insight into something - I love it when people can see things in a differnet light. It's what we need around here, rather than boxing everything in!

[Pastor Art]

Mike

That background is so important! The “Christian” mind today responds; “Oral Torah” bad “Written Torah” good. This is needless and founded on wrong teaching and understanding. The image of the invisible God - Yeshua is “the” Oral Torah the living word I think I read somewhere. And in the over 30 years of being His disciple an understanding of this is growing.

Malachi speaks, “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of Yahweh. And I will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse.” Chap.4:5-6.

Why would this be important? Because the exact reasons you have indicated in your post, the Church’s lack of contextual understanding of Yeshua - the living word Oral Torah incarnate. Moreover, placing the prophecy given to Malachi within the Jewish world view expands and gives us a true picture of his word to believers, those grafted in or a part of the original vine or olive tree.

“Returning the hearts of the fathers” - the fathers in the ears of the prophet’s hearers were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The indication would be "understanding our roots"(sons),put popularly and inturn understanding Messiah (fathers). Moreover if we take Paul seriously in Gal.3:29 to be in Christ is to be “Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise”. However Paul is only stating that any “stranger” or “alien” who enters into Covenant with Yahweh he is to be treated as a natural born citizen, Ex.12:47-50, Numb.9:14 and else where.

The Spirit of Elijah among the Hebrews is understood to be embodied in a prophet who like the namesake draws the people of the Covenant back to right standing before the Covenant maker Yahweh. John the Baptist did this, but this call is to be expanded at the second coming. We have so divorced our “Gospel” from the Torah that we are in great danger of preaching a different gospel and a different Christ of which Paul also warned us to be aware of.in this,I think will come the great falling away and the deception even the elect may secomb to.

This understanding of “Kingdom” as here and now growing unto all the ages was the theme of many of Yeshua’s teachings. Paul later says we are ambassadors of an existing Kingdom speaking on behalf of an existing King, neither were speaking in future terms. The Spirit of Elijah is calling, we stand on the Mountain waiting for fire. By the way Yahweh is a consuming fire for the wicked unto destruction but for the Zadek - the Righteous purification, read John 16:8-11.
Pastor Art

[Tony Myles]

Perhaps this thought is more to Chris's comments, but I believe the key verse in Genesis about what heaven will be like is found in the concept: "And the man and woman were naked and they knew no shame." I don't think this is just talking about physical nakedness alone, but rather is a reference to the idea that both with God and with each other there was the idea of being able to be naked as individuals and not fear condemnation.

So I would argue that hell isn't just seeing your bad point and heaven seeing your good points. Rather, heaven is being completely naked... and being completely shameless.

And as we know, this is possible only through Jesus Christ.

[Clint Walker]

I have mixed feelings about your post here.

On one hand, I do think the end times, heaven and hell, and all that can be focused on too much.

On the other hand, I believe that the gospels clearly teach that all our actions and our lives are in some sense eschatologiclly and eternally significant.

In other words, I am not sure the idea is an either/or idea with eternity verses the now as much as it is a both/and idea. Paraphrasing C.S. Lewis, it is often those who are most heavenly minded who also do the most earthly good.

[Mike DeVries]

Clint, I totally see where you are coming from. I do think it is a both/and, not an either/or. The Jewish concept was not a negation of the eternal, but a sense that what truly matters is how we live in the here and now. In addition, how we live in the here and now has enormous impact on the eternal. Where I think we may have a misemphasis is in packaging the gospel purely in futuristic terms. So I would say that often times we are the very ones who are guilty in the either/or scenario. I read a best selling book by a pastor who said, "This world is just a dress rehearsal for the next." I also heard a local pastor teach his congregation "Jesus does not care about this world. He only cares about your eternity." I think it is this kind of thinking that is dangerous, short sighted, and in danger of "watering down" the gospel of the Kingdom.

I had a conversation with a person who accused me of supposedly "watering down" the gospel because I was emphasizing the present ramifications. The whole time I was thinking, "Hhhmmm. So we're taking the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, all of his teachings about the Kingdom of God, the entire theme of salvation in the Scriptures, as well as the eschatalogical hope of the nation of Israel... and boiling down to four propositions that fit in a booklet with a prayer at the end. Now which is truly limiting what the gospel is?

I wonder if we should be living in harmony with God, not beacuase of what we get out of it, but because living in harmony with God is the way we were created live. It's like marriage. I take out the trash for my wife not because of the reward I might receive, but purely because it shows my love for my wife. To do the former is a self-centered love [as our counselor puts it], while the latter is a more mature form of love. So maybe we need to call people away from a self-centered love and toward a more mature love of God.

Just a thought.

[mike vanderkwaak]

Thanks Mike for exporting your experience into my world. I must admit I coveted your experience of going to her a Rabbi speak on Heaven and Hell.

The Jewish people believe they are God's chosen people. They are it. First row, first in line people. Of course they are going to heaven. If they aren't, who would? So why would they develop a theology or midrash to get into the details of life hereafter? Seems like a waste of time.

Now, from a Christ follower's perspective, the question becomes is our focus helping keep people from going to hell? Or living the live of shalom and blessing and let Jesus build his church? I don't think these are exclusive, but our education institutions and denominations have been created and focused heavily on dispensations, views of tribulation, and getting people save from eternal damnation. What if we spend that much energy and time and money and our best brightest work on how we are to live our lives in times such as this? What would happen then? What would happen to the "C"hurch?

Thanks Mike for sharing and if you have an mp3 file, I'd buy you the next one on Beach.

[Mike DeVries]

Yeah, we didn't even think about doing the mp3 thing. Bummer. Maybe next time. The cool thing is that Rabbi Marcus really enjoyed the time and wants to more things like this in the future. He told us that the idea came because he has so many people asking him about the Jewish understanding of various issues and ideas about God. I'm just excited to be a part of the dialogue.

As for the next one Beach. I'm ready anytime. Let me know when you're in town again. Peace, bro!

[Clint Walker]

I see where you are coming from. And I think part of it is which "Christian culture" you are living in at the moment. Currently I am in a very mainline, neo-liberal theological environment. And, in that context your comments can sound like an either/or type of proposition.

From the perspective of someone who might have come out of a very conservative, evangelical context, or be living close to one now, your comments make more sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain.